I'm not exactly an old-timer on this list, but I have been around for longer than a few months. While I have seen a few minor messages on the subject of Zip-MUDs, this is the first time I've seen one get so big so fast. When I first decided to start a MUD for the first time, it wasn't under the intention of creating something, but more to see if I could do it. At that time, I was building for a MUD that had one of the best coders I have ever met, but I won't mention Caniffe by name:P It started just like every other clueless-newbie MUDs out there: I grabbed a copy of the latest circlemud (bpl14 at the time) and had a friend with brief experience with coding start it up for me. When I realized that stock circle didn't come with OLC, I didn't know where to turn. Since my only partner was another builder with no programming experience, I was lost. I turned to my pal (the coder whose name I'm not mentioning:P) who snagged a copy of bpl14 with OasisOLC patched in already. We call these things Zip-MUDs. So now I had a stock MUD with the capabilities of growing larger. My partner started recruiting builders left and right, and with them came ideas geared towards making the MUD better (more player-friendly). So once again, yet another friend came to my rescue. He added a few minor tidbits, like scan and auto-quests. At this point, the MUD was flourishing with new players. Most of them didn't mind the fact that the only playable zones were stock, but I was beginning to sweat. I had never intended on actually producing a MUD at that point, I was only playing around. Next thing you know, there's a reference in Mud-Connector pointing to my slightly-more-than-stock MUD. So we were spammed with new players on an hourly basis, all looking for something new and exciting. Well, next thing you know my builders aren't building, they are out playing with their mortal characters, and when their Imms were online, they were using them to cheat. Since I had spent quite a bit of time teaching them to build, I was hesitant to start laying down rules and regs. Soon, my "for-fun" project had turned into something full-time, which my new wife and son didn't appreciate very much at all. When my wife got sick, I finally had my excuse. The game was shut down and opened on a new server with only myself and my original partner working on it in our spare time. That didn't last long either, but I had accomplished what I had set out to do, which was learn and grow. I discovered the mistakes I made, and promised myself I would never make them again. I experimented with a few other codebases, and started learning how to code. My first lesson was learning the difference between a coder and a programmer. While it is entirely possible to be both, there is a major difference. A programmer can be compared to a major car company engineer. While a coder can be compared to a shade-tree mechanic. Once again, I grabbed a Zip-MUD (bpl14 with OLC+). This time, I went out and invested in a "C for Dumies" type book and set out to make a real MUD. After bugging more than a few friends via email, I was pointed to this mailing list. I quickly discovered the FAQ, mailing archives and various "how-to" docs and snippets on the circle FTP site. We have lift-off! I started minor (new classes and races) and worked my way higher. While my original MUD is now collecting virtual dust on my hardrive, I am now a full-time (literally) coder for an up-and-coming MUD with great potential, writing my own original code and contributing back to the community that gave me a start at doing something I love. I still make mistakes and I still have questions, but now I can fix my own mistakes and most of my questions are about theoretical applications of my ideas. So to those people who say that Zip-MUDs are detrimental to the 'Circle Community', I liken it to someone saying that pine trees are detrimental to the forest. Look around folks, these new MUDs ARE the community, at least part of it. I generally answer ONLY newbie questions on this list. Questions that have to do with areas I have already been through. Anyone who takes the time to run my name through the search at the mailing list archives can easily attest to this. I'm not a programmer. I'll probably never be as good as Del, George or Patrick. But damnit, I'm a good coder, it's what I do and I'm proud of it. So, if there is anyone on this list that I have helped in any way, please think twice before slamming Zip-MUDs, stock MUDs or newbies trying to find answers to questions they don't understand. -Shane P. Lee a.k.a. Fire __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! 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