----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Dughi" <dughi@IMAXX.NET>
To: <CIRCLE@post.queensu.ca>
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2000 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [CIRCLE] Viability of a Graphical CircleMUD
> > My conclusion? Probably not.
> >
> > My logic in why a graphical CircleMUD (or MUD of any general type) would
not
> > be that great lies in the fact that graphics are, well, visual. This
means
> > that the creator of a MUD needs to have a fully realized graphical
world.
> > It would be a rare event.
> >
> > But the question I ask will not be whether or not a graphical CircleMUD
is a
> > good idea, only if it's viable.
>
> I'll give you both. There are actually free graphical 'muds' out
> there. That is, there are everquest and ultima clones (the server that
> is). They're free, and people run them all the time. Why does this work
> so well?
>
> Well, because they're clones. All the artwork and actual
> difficult work is handled by your ultima/everquest client. That's right,
> Ultima Online has something like 4 man-years of work towards its
> graphics. That's professional computer game artists too, nothing trivial
> about em.
>
> Can you put that much effort out, especially for a hobby mud?
Exactly my point. It's not likely to happen. To have that capability, on
the other hand, would be nice. And if the setup were similar to Quake 3
maps and whatnot, there is a (small) number of capable people out there to
create the levels. Of course, those are tiny, but that's beside the point.
> Can you ask that much from your zone builders, most of whom
> believe they have a romantic soul that inspires them to build - when most
> are about as deep as Andrew Dice Clay limericks? Most of them aren't
> prepared to draw as well as write. If they are, would they have the 3-d
> modeling skills (or even 2-d) to make the graphics you need? Would
> they put in that time without getting paid for it?
>
> The magic eight ball replies, 'Signs point to "no"'.
That's why I thought that CircleMUD, in its traditional form, would not do
well when moved into a graphical setup. It would completely alter how the
MUD works, because the visual aspect would dump all the text stuff into the
garbage.
> > Regardless, I want to see what input you have about adding graphics
> > capability. Especially in these areas:
> > a) the MUD client. Unless there were some proprietary MUD graphics
> > protocol (or MUD protocol in general), each MUD would have to have a
> > completely unique client to handle its graphical needs. What are other
> > options? MXP? RIP[1]? An actual MUD protocol, rather than
interpreting
> > stuff after it comes through telnet[2]?
>
> On the other hand, I think that a stock circlemud client would be
> a great thing to have to give to the circlemud community at large. I
> think that if the community as a whole could offer the source &
> everything it'd be great.
>
> If we could co-develop a mud server and a client specifically for
> that server, we could probably do a lot better than tagged html-type of
> system. It wouldn't be a thing to open a seperate port for client-type
> connections, and deal with it like that.
Yes, having a second client connection out is not a big deal. A friend of
mine who used to help code when my MUD was actually a progressing project
helped to put in code (based on some code from RoA) to stream mp3s from a
second channel. By the way, that's a terrible idea, especially if the MUD
gets big. :)
> > b) the MUD server. Would you consider CircleMUD's socket handling and
I/O
> > to be efficient and powerful[3] enough to handle the extra information
that
> > would be required to make it a graphical MUD? Would you even make an
> > attempt to make it remain a capable text-based MUD?
>
> Sure. There's nothing complicated about telling a client - for
> example - to display a picture, or play a song. The only thing that
> would/could possibly tax the computer at all would be something like
> graphics/sound updates which mostly would be bandwidth limited.
>
> The issue I get frustrated over is that people assume that telnet
> and a graphics pump/server idea coupled using _text_ tags is actually a
> _good_ idea.
>
> Graphics and telnet just don't mix :)
Yes, this is true. I'm trying to understand the idea of a MUD protocol, but
I haven't gotten any feedback as far as that goes.
> > c) the graphics. 2D, like in Diablo? 3D, like EverQuest? 3D, like
VRML
> > (hey, it's going to be big, I'm telling you)? How would that affect the
way
> > the MUD plays? Would you go to real-time combat (this would definitely
> > destroy it for trying to make it available for text-based as well)?
What
> > are some other issues you'd worry about here?
> >
> Yeah... well, I wouldn't recommend real-time combat unless you
> want to rethink the entire way the entire system works - right now we're
> using string-based transactions; "north" "hit troll with sword", etc.
>
> For real time, you're going to want to use packet-based
> transactions. I'm afraid that this would disallow a concurrent
> string-based system. You'd also have to think about things like
> mud-clients cheating, and protocol security. All sorts of interesting
> things.
>
> Possible? Certainly. Easily doable, no.
>
> > d) cross-platform capability. Would you be trying to support clients
on
> > Windows, Macintosh, Linux, and whatnot? Would that urge you to write
your
> > client in something like Java, or just port the program to each after
> > writing in C++ or another language?
> >
> > Any other point people would like to point out? It would be an
interesting
> > pet project to take up.
> > -Tony
> >
> > [1] - Smaug, I believe uses RIP. I used to use RIPscrip (I believe they
> > actually left the `t' off, but I don't know) BBSes. Remember LORD? Is
that
> > the kind of MUD you'd make?
> >
> Gawd I hated RIP based anything. Better no graphics than poor
> graphics in this day and age.
>
> PjD
RIP graphics were alright, they did their job on that TriBBS I used to play
on. Using RIP now it would seem like taping a Kenwood CD faceplate onto
your 8-track player, or maybe the other way around. I'm interested in
seeing the client/server stuff discussed more, it might be prove fun to toy
with.
-Tony
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